It had been quite some time since seedlings had begun to emerge in our straw bales. So long, in fact, that even my embarassingly untrained eye could already begin to determine what was what. Pumpkin vines are already spilling out of the side of one bale. Heads of lettuce looking lush in another. Carrot tops appearing in a third. And then there’s the spicy bale. We have various hot peppers and radishes making themselves known in that one. The seed packets and advice from those with thumbs greener than mine both had one thing to say about this time in our garden’s life: It was time to thin. That’s right. Pull out and toss aside perfectly good plants in order to make room for the rest to grow fully.
So today, I finally made myself do it.
Why exactly do I say made myself? Well, I love our little garden. It’s adorable and it’s awesome and it’s growing so well and it’s…ours. We take pride in it. The fact that full on plants are growing out of seeds that we planted in damp, fertilized straw is thrilling. We take ownership of our little garden. After all, it’s us who are helping to keep it watered, making sure it is safe from animals who might nibble at its bounty and fed with a balance of nutrients. So that is exactly why it was hard for me to thin out the plants.
However, I knew I had to. In the name of a better and healthier garden, the seedlings must be spaced just so. There needs to be room for each carrot to thrive, space for the watermelon vines to wind, ample chance for each broccoli plant to flourish. And where too many little sprouts are clustered together, optimal growth simply can’t occur.
Therefore, for the benefit of our garden, I must thin out the plants. And I’m going to be honest with you. Plucking perfectly good, dainty little fresh plants was totally hard for me to do! Yanking a thriving green baby carrot from its warm home in the straw bale went against what felt right. Tossing hearty pumpkin vines, just beginning to fall off the side of the bale seemed to go against the very reason we were gardening: to grow things! Yet there I sat, my knees getting damp from the rain soaked lawn, black dirt collecting under my fingernails. I dutifully did the hard thing: I thinned out all of our vegetables. Discarding baby plants rubbed me the wrong way; it seemingly went against the plan I had for our garden.
But, difficult for me to do or not, it was what needed to be done.
I would have been doing my garden no favors by leaving all the tender sprouts in place, crowded together. If plants had feelings, I’m sure I would have hurt many of them today. The little radishes wouldn’t understand that they need to be sacrificed so that their neighbor can grow stronger. Thankfully, plants don’t have feelings. I went through the garden, row by row, and did what I knew I needed to do, paying no regard to the fact that I didn’t want to be doing it.
As I pulled, plucked and cast aside today, it occurred to me quite clearly that parenting is very much like gardening. Specifically in the area of our children’s behavior, we often must do the hard work of disciplining them, even when it’s difficult.
Well, of course, we don’t have to do this as parents. Just as I wouldn’t have had to thin out the plants in our garden. Children will still grow, vegetables will still emerge. But I firmly believe that without following through with the sometimes painful task of disciplining our children, they won’t thrive as well as they otherwise could.
Naturally, how different parents discipline is a personal choice. It differs from family to family and even from child to child. As it has in our family, beliefs about discipline may change as the years go on and more children, and more experience, enter our lives. My once firmly held beliefs about the appropriateness of spanking have been replaced with a gentler approach that includes physical punishment much less often. The bonded feeling I used to have when I believed I should never tell my child no gave way to the even stronger bond that exists when my children feel safe and secure knowing that there are boundaries and no-no’s out there. As I learn more about my children, I am better able to confidently discipline them. Using ways that speak their language, I can reach them with ways of shaping their behavior and self control.
Although there are as many ways to discipline a child as their are snowflakes that fall in the Frozen Tundra each winter, I don’t think that means that anything goes. Just as long as a parent means well does not necessarily mean that their discipline is appropriate. I don’t know what you have experienced out in the public square, among your circle of friends or with the other mothers at your child’s preschool, but what I have been feeling a lot of in the past few years is an I want to be my child’s friend vibe.
Ironically enough, I love the thought of being my children’s friend. Being intimately bonded with my babies from day one is a huge priority and joy for me as a mother. The majority of attached parenting ideals sit well with my soul. However, sometimes I choose to do the hard work of making choices in disciplining my children that are not fun at the time. Decisions that may not make the offending child feel exactly friendly towards me. Whether it be the removal of a prized toy for a season of time, practicing extinction in order to snuff out a certain behavior, giving a spanking or putting a child in a time-out or on “the naughty spot” as one television show describes it, there are things that some parents do that aren’t winning us any points in our children’s books right now.
And I have decided that, much like thinning the plants in our straw bale garden, I am okay with that.
Except I’m not. It pains me to have to discipline my children. I detest taking away a privilege or giving them another kind of consequence. But far be it from me to withhold such discipline and instead allow my children to become an overrun, crowded, unhealthy garden. Too often I think we as parents make the mistake of parenting solely based on feelings. Sure, feelings are very important. Many of my parenting actions are based on feelings and I consider myself bonded to and very emotionally close to my children. With that being said, I would be remiss to use emotion as the singular basis for my parenting. Sometimes, even though I want nothing more than to scoop a child up and give him a hug, I must choose to instead discipline him…and then hug him.
That is not to say that there aren’t many, many times when we choose to bestow grace and mercy upon our children. Just as God loves us in spite of our sin and forgives us, granting us salvation instead of sending us to eternal damnation like we deserve, sometimes we model that same act for our children. There are times when we don’t give the child the consequence they deserve, but instead tell them we choose to bestow mercy upon them. There is a beautiful book that I have read parts of called Grace Based Parenting that I learned a lot from.
However, my ultimate job as a parent is not to make sure my child is always happy. It is to teach my child to be content in all things. To be self controlled. To learn to make wise choices. To be able to fail and get back up again.
To that end, it often takes parents completing the difficult task of disciplining our children. Even when we don’t want to. Even when the voices of the world tell us we are being mean. Just like plucking perfectly good plants in a garden seems to go against the very purpose of the garden, we still must do it because we know it to be right and because it will help our garden in the long run. So I think it is with our children. To raise children into secure, healthy, capable adults, we must allow ourselves to be first their parents and second their friends. We need to trust our instincts as mothers and allow ourselves to discipline our children because we know it is right and because it will help them in the long run.
“All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwords it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.” Hebrews 12:111.
Ah, the garden of parenthood. The work we do here may be hard, we might end up with dirt under our fingernails, but the bounty we will produce will be worth all of the difficult tasks we must complete.
WOW! Thank you for this post. It is beautiful, appropriate and perfect. Sometimes we need those gentle reminders and this is one of those! Love it!
Wow, this is a beautiful post! And a very timely one in our home.
Who knew a 1 year old could be so defiant? It’s nice to be reminded that our consistent correction is not in vain.
Hi Jennifer,
As a homeschool mom I find that our disciplining methods are similar, but I am having the most difficulty with dealing with other children’s behavior. Being that it is summer and all the neighbor kids are out of school, this is a huge problem.
I’m not talking about the neighbor child who accidently breaks a favorite toy, or forgets a rule that I have laid down beforehand. I am speaking of the “hateful” child. We have a neighbor boy who is 8, and fits this description. For instance, the other day we had some friends over for a playdate. The neighbor boy was at home, but his “big” dog was loose again and in our yard. I told the dog to go home. The dog charge my friend’s little boy pushing him to the ground (hard) causing his hand and knee to bleed. We all went over to talk to the neighbor, but mom wouldn’t come outside. The neighbor boy stood outside and listened to our story. The neighbor boy smirked and said to us, “good dog!” I was speechless. Talked to the parents later that night, and they just shook their head. Nothing more was done. This boy is hateful all the time. Constant name calling and mouthiness. Last week, when I wouldn’t let him swim in our pool, he yelled over the fence that I was a stupic freek. What can I do? I hate to even have my kids in contact with this boy, much less live next to him. We own our home and don’t plan on moving. They are in a rental house, but they’ve been here a couple of years. What would you do if you were in my shoes?
Amy
Thanks for this. I don’t like disciplining my children at all. I would much rather let them do what they want so they like me. However, as I often explain to my children when I’m disciplining them, God gave me the responsibility to “train them up in the way they should go” and, even though I sometimes don’t want to obey God, I still choose to obey Him because I love Him.
Great perspective. Thank you for sharing.
i work in early childhood. you might like “positive discipline” by jane nelsen. or you might not. but it’s the general approach we use as a program. it is firm and loving. i think it’s a great tool to have in your discipline toolbox–it sounds like yours is already bursting with research!
ahem. i’m going to sidestep the metaphoric part of this post and just comment briefly on the gardening part. i hate thinning, too! but if you read “square foot gardening” by mel bartholomew, he talks a lot about planting only as many seeds as you want plants. do you have to re-plant a few? sure. but it’s a better use of seeds and space, and then you have produce ripening at different times, which is nice too.
the book is SO easy to read (i dislike reading any how-to books!) and put into practice. easy, easy, easy. and he’s an efficiency expert, which i love.
I have only skim read this post I have a lot to get done and should not even be here.. haha
I too desire to be my children’s friend.
I have five sons and one daughter who is my eldest . Two teenagers while the rest are younger. I’m finding it’s easy to ‘be your child’s friend’ when they are small. For all the developmental reasons we all know, they are so quick to forgive. They do not question your decisions… too much.
Putting a four year old in their room is easy, even if they are screaming and kicking.
A teenage boy who looks you in the eye and has a set of shoulders on him, is not so easy to deal with.
The teen years are just SO different. I am “channelling kindness” today following some nasty hormone driven anger from my teen son {14} last night. I am standing firm, doing all things motherly such as provide a warm home, good food and clean clothes… plus love in abundance. But right now being his friend is SO far from where we both are it’s not even imaginable to me that this is what its like having a teenager.
I believe you are right. I hope with my fullest motherly heart that ALL of my children enjoy my company as they and I age. Some days I wish you could turn back time……. the hectic days of many, many small children seem so very easy compared to this.
:)
*sigh.
Now onto making dinner
Oh how i love this. Being a parent is the hardest job in the world to do well. Thanks for the reminders Jen.
I totally agree with you. My mom is one of my best friends. I hope to be my children’s friend one day when they are adults. We always try to be friendly towards each other, but first and foremost my role is to be their parent and to guide, teach and discipline as difficult as that sometimes is.
Good post….
I have a 10 month old son and it amazes me when people tell me that kids don’t and can’t understand how to behave untill they are MUCH older.. as in 3-4 and even then its iffy… I just am shocked!
My son KNOWS when he does something he is not suppose to an he is only 10 months! It kinda amuses me but makes me wonder how much parents just ignore the fact that children are way smarter than they give them credit for!
Our sunday school teacher went thru a child rearing series and one of the points he made on kids is to ALWAYS set boundries! No matter WHAT it is, your child will know BEFORE the fact what is right and wrong. No “if you do that one more time” becuase they already knew before they did it that they were not suppose to. It was a major help to me.
Discipline is different for each kid to I think!
Just my thought!
Nichole
thanks for the post. i have a two year old and six month old and am realizing more and more each day how important consistent, loving discipline is.
i just finished (and started re-reading) an incredibly insightful and inspiring book called “the mission of motherhood” by sally clarkson. i highly recommend it to all mothers as it lays out an incredible vision for motherhood!
Great post…but did you REALLY do all that gardening and weeding and then post all this without pictures?!?!?!?! We NEED to see how your gardens grow!
Soon:)
I need to re-read this to process it some more. I spank, but not always sure I am doing it the biblical way. I have read “Shepherding a Child’s Heart” by Ted Tripp. Would love to read “Grace Based Parenting” but haven’t gotten my hands on it yet!
My kids a 7, 5, 3 and 2! My question is… what is the appropriate consequence for whining (especially when I seem to have let it get the best of us)?
I have read both those books! And they are a great resource! I am all for spanking! It is biblical…I think as long as we as parents do not do it in anger.
SPANKING IS NOT BIBLICAL.
The new testament does not confirm it at all. Children that are spanked hit other children because is what they learn at home
God’s way is through love\
It works I have proven it
I spank.
I have a four year old who is, by everyone’s standard, “spirited.” When he became four, he became independent, and his behavior spiralled from the once-a-week fit to his Pre-K teachers calling us every day to pick him up because his behavior was so disruptive.
It killed me to have to crack down on him, but I tried so many things before spanking. I talked to him, repeatedly. I took away privileges. I made him spend alone time in the corner. I cut him off from movies on weekend nights, which he loved. Still, he misbehaved.
Finally, during one conversation, he told me how he knew he was being bad, but just didn’t care. “You can punish me,” he said, “but no one can tell me what to do!”
And that was it. I was spanked as a kid, and I was spanked usually only for disrespect, which this was. So I popped him on his bottom, open handed, and the shock of it was more upsetting to him than the actual pop.
However, that action? To him, the threat of a spanking now proves to him that Mommy means business. Maybe that’s scaring him into submission, or behaving, or whatever, but I know that as he grows older and learns why you cannot do some things, or act some way, that it will sink in WHY I was the way I was.
This is not to say that I think spanking is the best form of discipline. I don’t. I think that when you have exhausted all other options, then sometimes spanking is the only thing that might work in a given situation. Every kid is different, every parent is different.
Spanking is not o.k. in any situation. it shows a child that when all else fails, hitting will solve a problem. I have never respected an adult that hits another adult or a child that hits another child, why in the world is hitting your child when all other measures have failed a good lesson?
This is not a critique on your parenting, you clearly care enough about your child to try really hard to figure out in a non violent way so i encourage you to continue figuring it out in a non violent way.
This doesn’t teach respect and it doesn’t teach morality or even why an action was wrong. It teaches a child to avoid the behavior that gets them hit.
And what kind of lesson is that? If mommy hits me when I talk back, I won’t talk back because I get hit. You don’t learn why it is disrespectful to talk back to mommy, simply that you get hit when you do.
What happens when a child is older, bigger, not afraid of getting hit? They don’t have the basis of understanding that it is rude and disrespectful so they can now talk back with no fear of being hit by some one smaller/ weaker/ not intimidating.
Yes, every child is different. That is why ther eis always an option for a different approach than hitting a child.
It really bothers me that in society today it isn’t o.k. to hit any one, unless it is a child being struck by their parent. What kind of message is that?
It is biblical to spank your children. Not child abuse, but give them a good pop on the bottom. Our Pastor at http://www.gatewaypeople.com just had a great sermon on this and why it is Biblical if you would like another view point. And he encouraged Spankings! The sermon is under Broken Series and is called, Happy Child, Happy Home I believe.
that’s probably also why you stop after they hit the teen years……
i for my part find it almost amusing that teens are apparently no longer needing the rod…..or might it be because they could fight back??
i for my part found it horrible that my parents could hurt me when i was doing somthing THEY deemed wrong….why do the parents know everything, why do children have to obey in every case…..and why does it change as soon as the child hits 18…or 21 in the U.S.
sometimes children “misbehave” when the didn’t even want to do someting wrong, etc.
and you still didn’t answer about the double-standard thing: hitting a child is ok, but a child hitting someone else is not ok???
does your child have the right to spank YOU if you did him/her wrong????
if not, WHY not, if you have the right……..there are so many questions and “biblical parenting” should not be your easy way out, just saying
I simply reject that it is biblically supported to strike a child.
Spare the rod spoil the child?
Why does that one piece of scripture need to mean God said beat your child into respect and submission?
Why not spare the rod and spoil your child?
I spoil my child with my time and attention and she is remarkably well behaved. I have never had to strike her, nor would I.
Non violent approaches work great with her. At 2.5 she understands that she is welcome to be upset, it is a very human reaction. She may be upset and get control of her emotions in her own time in her own room if she can’t calm down. She knows that she is loved and needs a moment to collect her self and she comes out gets a big hug and snuggles and is over her fit. I need a break now and then too and I go to my room till I calm down and that is that.
Another method that really works is reinforcing the behaviors that make me proud. “It makes me feel very proud of you when you sit down and put on your shoes the first time I ask”. She responds VERY well to this expectation and knows she has done a good thing and I am proud of her for it.
She can be EPICALLY refusing to obey and we found recently this really works because children desire our approval.
While I do not have it all figure out, I reject this perpetuated notion that bible allows us to strike our children or any one else for that matter.
I agree hiting is not biblical
If I accept your statement that “it shows a child that when all else fails, hitting will solve a problem.” Then why, as a grown adult who was spanked as a child, do I NOT think that hitting will solve a problem. Even as a child I knew hitting was not the answer. Even as a child it was discipline, not violence.
I have never met a child that was spanked as a form of discipline, and I have worked in child care a lot, try to hit other children because of that.
I do believe you have to communicate with your children and not just spank them. They have to understand that you love them and that is why you are disciplining(whether by taking privileges, alone time, spanking etc.)
My very wise mother summed parenting up this way:
“You can be your kids’ friend, or you can be their parent. Which one do they need more? They have friends. They need you to be their parent.”
I also heard Ron Luce of Acquire the Fire say:
“Your kids are going to be adults a lot longer than they’re going to be kids. In order to have a healthy relationship with them when they’re adults, you have to do the hard things when they’re kids.”
Which, he went on to explain, means discipline, and being their parent first and foremost.
I’m just learning how to be a parent. My first baby is only 6 months old. Already I tell him “No”, like when he tries to suck his thumb during mealtime I gently move it away from his mouth and say “no”, and I don’t like it! But I hold onto the fact that it is important for him to learn early on that Mommy means what Mommy says, and Mommy will always do what’s best for him and what’s going to help him grow up to be smart and strong. Even if it’s just a detail like good table manners.
The small stuff is where it starts.
I love the advice you mom gave. When my kids say that I’m mean because I’ve told them no with very good reasoning or I’ve disciplined. I always tell them : “I love you and want what’s best for you. I don’t like this either, but I’m your mom not your friend.” My kids understand that I enjoy being with them and spending time with them and bonding and all that, but it’s not friendship it’s a parent child relationship. One day when they are adults the friendship part will come but right now, I’m the mom and they are the child. A mentor told me and my husband once, if you don’t discipline your children, who will?”
by the way, I have spanked, but I don’t anymore. I much rather prefer finding other more creative solutions to discipline. I want my kids to delight in obedience as David delighted walking in God’s way.
You are wise
We need to show the church and society that God never meant in his word to hit a child
I have been mulling over this idea for quite some time. I have never been a big proponent of spanking. I think that it did not do much good on me or my siblings when it was doled out. I swore that I would not spank my child. I, of course, have since rescinded that view. I have spanked L. And I HAAAATE it. It breaks my heart to pop her bottom. I would much rather kneel down and talk to her and explain to her how upsetting her behaviour is to me. I would much prefer to stand her in the timeout corner and make her think about why she thought her behaviour would be acceptable. For the most part, she is a lot like me. She does not want to disappoint you. She gets very upset after being made to understand that what she did was wrong. BUT!!!! That being said…lately…I don’t know what has gotten into her…its like I HAVE to spank her little bottom to pop her back into reality. She gets so defiant and so hysterical and so…out. of. control!!! I still start with my normal beginning point of talking…it just escalates to a little pop on the back of her legs that stings and then she snaps back to my normal, sweet, apologetic little girl.
I do not think that spanking should be the ONLY course of action, by any means…but I do think, for the most part, it should be in your repertoire. There are so many other things that should be attempted before having to get physical with a child….
Charisse, I TOTALLY understand this, and I think it’s her age. We went through that with Ironman too, where sometimes we knew the only thing that would get through to him was a spank. And it was like night and day. We’d give him his spank, hold him afterwards, talk about what he did, pray for forgiveness talk about love, all that, and then it was like he turned back to normal.
Spanking is our last resort. It’s hard now b/c Bucket is now at the age where sometimes its necessary, and man, the first time, just one swat, it broke my heart. But it made a difference, and I held him afterwards and loved him… I think that is the most important thing… you don’t just SPANK your child. You explain why, before and after, or you have them tell you why, and you talk about other choices they could have made, you tell them how much you love them and why you had to give them the spank, and then (at least for us) you talk to Jesus about what went wrong and ask for help and forgiveness!
I GET that. It is heartbreaking. I despise it. I despise the feeling I get when it happens. And we do talk about it. And I do love on her. And I do tell her that Mommy didn’t want to spank her. And how much it hurts Mommy’s feelings when she acts ugly and doesn’t listen to the things that I tell her. Her thing lately has been, “What does God say when you have to spank me?” Then we have a whole discussion about how God said children have to listen to their grownups. And God said Mommies have to take care of their children. And that, sometimes, taking care of her might mean spanking her little bum until she can realize that the things she has been doing are not right.
Being a mom? Awesome. Love it. Being a PARENT? ugh. I know they are one and the same, but at the same time, they’re not. i wish there was an OBEY button!
great post! i was spanked ALL the time as a child. not abusively… yes, it stung and there were tears, but it was never enough to leave marks or hurt us badly. now that i’ve got two toddlers, one of which has suddenly become this defiant little monster, my first instinct is to spank. that’s how i was raised, so it’s ingrained, i think. i have to catch myself, especially when i’m super frustrated, and take a few seconds to “check out” of the immediate situation. most of the time, the action doesn’t deserve a spanking, and so we use it only when absolutely necessary. like when our point needs a little extra something to drive the message home; then, a quick swat is put into play. i don’t like doing it, but every now and again, my son needs a wake-up call or something to snap him out of the defiant mode. when used correctly and in much moderation, i don’t think spanking is a bad thing… as long as it’s not abusive. this area of child-rearing is one of those where you’re either for it or against it, there’s no real middle ground. what works for one family might not work for another. abuse is never the answer, obviously, but a swat every now and again to show your kid that you mean business is sometimes all it takes for them to finally “get it”. i’m not 30 yet, but i think when my generation was small, spanking was quite common. it didn’t hurt us (mind you, i’m referring to spanking, not abuse), and from what i see, young kids today are much more disrespectful and unruly than we were 20-ish years ago.
I read a book recently on this exact topic. It’s called Parenting by The Book by John Rosemond! GREAT book and I HIGHLY recommend reading it. It WILL open up your eyes. I was humbled by this book as well, I felt like I was doing the right thing even tho most of today is not doing what we believe in.
I used to read his parenting column in the newspaper quite often!
Yep thats him! It really is a great book. My library even had it. He breifly tells about when and how he was saved!
that is a great book as well!
Very well written post! As a daycare provider, I can attest to the fact that children thrive on setting boundaries, rewarding good behavior, and giving consequences for actions not appropriate. I was a stay-at-home mom when my own children were small, and I found that my own many small children (also charming) needed me to be consistent even when I would have rather we all just got along! I would tell them it was their choice if they had a pleasant day, and also that I didn’t want to have to discipline but it was my job. I also held out hope for them (still do with children I have currently in my care) that SOMEDAY they will be in charge! They think that’s going to be much more fun that it actually is, but it seems to give them something to think about and plan for.
I also enjoyed the analogy to thinning out your carrots, etc. I enjoy reading your thoughts daily, even though I have never commented before. God bless you all!
The hardest thing for me is accepting that different discipline works for different children. I just naturally assumed that what worked for our Oldest Boy would also work for his younger siblings and it is just not the case.
It’s also difficult when someone who watches your children constantly makes you feel like a heel for disciplining in your own style. My aunt, who loves my children but who never had children of her own, is one of those people. I don’t want to hurt her feelings, but giving in to a temper tantrum just because she’s there will only mean MORE of them for me to deal with later and I just don’t think it’s worth it. 3-year-olds need consistency more than any other age (so far). It also doesn’t help that if they whimper when she tells them “no”, they immediately get what they want. {SIGH} This means I either deal with the consequences (whiny children who expect the same thing to happen with me – NOT; or taking all 4 kids with me to every doc appt, shopping trip, meeting, etc.). I may print this post out and casually leave it around when she’s here tomorrow. Think she’ll take the hint?
I also understand the idea of wanting to be your child’s friend but we’re not. We’re their parents. We HAVE to be the parent. Because no one else will. They’ll have lots of friends, but only one mommy and daddy (theoretically). It’s a special position that God gave US for these particular little ones. A position that I’m really proud to have.
Great analogy. I too had a hard time thinning out my plants. I just hate discipline at times but it is a good thing. Great post, despite what a few people say.
While spanking is not the only form of discipline that works (and not always the appropriate response), as a Christian, I find the practice inseparable from the Bible’s prescription for effective parenting. Our culture is too politically correct now to openly admit that but for generations upon generations, parents reared responsible, caring adults with the use of corporal punishment.
It doesn’t take a genius to point out that children need discipline. I really thought you were leading to the spanking issue there, because saying “go to your room” really isn’t that hard to do; it’s easy, in fact, because you’re removing the guilty child from your sight and *poof*, no more disruption.
What IS hard, is “this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you” and then delivering a painful smack on a chubby bottom to get the message across, when necessary. You copped out! I think you watered down your message today, perhaps in the vein of being politically correct or because you’re concerned about a backlash. Either way, I have lost a lot of respect for you.
As a couple you will stand up for the legalization of pot, but avoid addressing a matter of particular relevance where you had the opportunity. You’re a Christian and the Bible is clear on the topic of corporal punishment – not necessarily the precise method thereof, but in the point that it’s better to inflict temporal physical pain than foster a wicked, defiant spirit. Sending junior to their room may work for some things, but when push comes to shove and he/she is expressing defiance or ma lice…sending them to their room is weak and ineffective.
Also, this “extinction” is nothing more than ignoring/rejecting your children when they’re acting in a way you don’t like. Control by emotional rejection? What’s more detrimental, a smack on the butt or emotional scars? A fancy word for the silent treatment…please don’t dress it up as something it’s not and parade it around as enlightenment. The Word of God says that a parent who fails to discipline their child promptly HATES that child.
You’ve been given a podium but you’re leading moms astray. Weep for future generations – the new age is here.
Hi Lila,
Just a couple thoughts… I would be interested to see some Scriptural back-up for “the Bible is clear on the topic of corporal punishment.” I’m just curious because I would say that the Bible is clear on the need to teach/ guide/ discipline our children, but is not clear on the role of corporal punishment. Also, MckMama’s original post mentioning extinction gives an incomplete definition of “extinction,” and I think it might be worth clarifying now that people are referring back to it. Extinction means no longer reinforcing a behavior that had previously been reinforced. So if the behavior was previously reinforced by giving it attention, then extinction could mean ignoring. If the behavior was previously reinforced by getting to leave the dinner table early (for example, a child screams during dinner and gets sent out to go watch TV), then extinction would mean that the child needs to remain at the table until everyone is finished. And interestingly, if the behavior was previously reinforced by time alone or being ignored, extinction would mean the opposite of ignoring. In that case, to practice extinction the parent would stop ignoring the child when the behavior occurs.
Proverbs 13:24
“He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.”
Proverbs 20:30
“Blows that hurt cleanse away evil, As do stripes the inner depths of the heart.”
Proverbs 22:15
“Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him.”
Proverbs 29:15
“The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.”
Proverbs 23:13, 14
“Don’t fail to discipline your children. They won’t die if you spank them.
Physical discipline may well save them from death.”
All the studies in the world can claim that spanking is damaging to a child but the things that hold true are this: God’s word and, as I said before, the example of generations upon generations of parents who used corporal punishment that regularly turned out responsible, respectful well-adjusted adults.
Corporal punishment is on the decline and America is seeing a generation of lazy, self-centered, irresponsible, media-hooked hedonists with no work ethic and loose morals coming up. I frequently cringe when I go out in public and see kids talking in the most disrespectful way to their parents. Why do they do this? They have no fear (see respect) because parents all too often implement the softer, gentler, toothless methods that involve a lot of reasoning and little action. You can’t reason with a three year old sometimes…they’re intrinsically irrational and they need to understand boundaries. You can love your child with intensity and still spank their bums when they cross the line. Don’t be such a lemming!
Think for yourselves, moms! The people who will tell you spanking is harmful are the same people who tell us to “eat eggs”, “now don’t”, “now eat them”, “now don’t” (“we really don’t know”, in other words) smoke this brand of cigarettes…oh wait, they’ll kill you, get everyone vaccinated for harmless diseases, take antibiotics for every possible affliction until we have resistant strains cropping up, go out and work so your kids are well-adjusted…no wait, stay at home with them because they need you in the formative years…. It just goes on and on!
My point is, man doesn’t know everything and sources are not always reliable just because they carry a degree. Choose who you receive wisdom from and don’t stray. My wisdom comes from the Bible and my children are well-behaved, well-adjusted and HAPPY!
you failed to mention these:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 :
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother … Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city … And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
Exodus 21:17
He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death
Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones
Proverbs 30:17
The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.
now tell me……how do you distinguish???
you use the rod…because its easy (child is scared and will not disobey because it fears pain)
but kill it for disobediance is also in the bible but that is (OF COURSE)wrong, and i am sure you share my opinion on this for once
not to mention god killed all the firstborns in egypt because the egyptians were blasphemers…..so does that mean god is ok with killing children?
as i understood it, NO!!!
but if these words of god are not meant exactly as they were spoken, why are the sayings about violating children??
i think it is a toothless and weak way of parents. spanking is a method that keeps the child from disobeying: first because of fear…maybe later it understands, but immediately it will apologize to make the parent stop.
using “weak” methods will take longer and will be more challenging for parents, but how do you explain to your child, that hitting somebody is wrong, if you do it to it daily??
double-standards??
so: i understand that it is convenient to peruse the bible to find things that support your parenting style, but please do not say: everything in there has to be taken seriously and word for word, because SOME things in the bible make me cringe for good
and if god meant them as they are worded there, i would be shocked at anyone who fully supports the christian faith then.
as i said before: the bible has metaphors, it can give guidelines, but to be taken word for word, it is too archaic….
and i for my part believe in the HUMAN RIGHTS which are severely violated in several parts of the bible
Lady, you’re obviously not a Christian, so why do you care if Christians debate the parental guidelines laid out in the Bible?
In case you’re interested, I’ll point out that the verses you mentioned re: stoning are part of the law that was followed by the Jews in the Old Testament. They were a set of legal mandates by which they governed themselves so that their race didn’t degrade into total moral decay before the Messiah came. The Book of Proverbs is prescriptive and based on words of wisdom that God gave Solomon. That proverb you mentioned was figurative… I can tell because I’ve spent time reading the Bible and getting to know the nature of God. Everything in context. I don’t “just pick things out” of the Bible. I study it and make sure things line up.
i am a roman catholic but you obviously know THE only way to be a christian so kudos to you to know how god intended his words…..
and i think someone else pointed it out to you that PROVERBS are not necessarily taken as set in stone, but i see, you also know better than them.
i will continue to see the bible as an excellent moral guideline which isn’t generally to be taken word by word because i deem that dangerous, as it is with the scriptures of other religions.
i see, that despite the bible consisting of gods words, they were dictated in archaic times to people who had to include them into their society as it was then.
i for my part (AS A CHRISTIAN, believe it or not) can accept that science (by god-created humans) can yield helpful information and that we should look at gods words and incorporate them in modern society (i mean: computers are ok, but psychology is not?!)
and i like the approach most of the commenters here are taking: accepting that there are often more efficient ways to parent than to spank and still following gods words (although i know you disagree…)
I for my part do not allow myself to make assumptions about someones faith or depth of it…..
must be because i am obviously not a christian…..
obviously…….
The Bible also says in 1 Timothy, “All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in Righteousness so the man of God shall be prepared for every good work.”
Archaic? No. I don’t think so.
God’s word does not say hit your child and it is not confirmed in the new testament so GOD ‘s way is not hitting is loving and having time with your child a relationship
lila, are you aware, that there are studies, which researched this type of punishment and found out, that it harms the childs soul and children who receive corporal punishment are becoming more aggressive adults???
are you furthermore aware, that the bible mentions stoning people for e.g. not being a virgin before one marries??
just because the word “rod” is used in the bible, does it have to mean corporal punishment…..because if you take the bible and read it word for word, you would support the rod…as a rod…….but for not being hypocrite, you’d have to stone people too……
if i can “translate” stoning into e.g. “being chastised by fellow christians” why does rod not mean “general punishment” (e.g. verbal or other non-violent strategies)?
and i think it pretty intolerant that your way of reading the bible is the only right way and you know what god is trying to say…..how often does the bible speak in metaphors?
and pleas remember that the bible was “brought to paper” in archaic times….noone knew much about psychology or anything.
they could only describe, what they thought right, in this past society…..
no warnings have been given about harming your child through hitting it with a rod, but the bible doesn’t mention computer either…or artificial knees or else…..but you use the copmputer, right???
it is called progress….how about adapting….keep the meaning but accept new findings of todays times………and please do not reprimand others for not sharing your exact beliefs….
if you punish your children like that, its your way of doing things…..and you may share your opinion just as i am allowed to share mine….but do not tell others how it HAS to be done….thats not your place
i am sorry for typos and for grammar mistakes, if i made any (which i am sure of
) i am no native speaker so please bear with me 
good comment we can not hit anybody
I can say that the “emotional scars” you speak of might happen for one child but not another. Every child is different. We have one child who thrives on one on one attention – even spanking. Spanking did not phase him one bit so we don’t do it. He would continue the behavior time after time so, even though we were consistent with spanking, we stopped it. He responds better to him being removed from any attention for 5 minutes or 10 minutes. Whatever it takes for him to calm down and come down to reason again. He is 6 now and he is so strong willed. “Emotional rejection” or the silent treatment works way better initially for him. Then we talk, hug and even pray together. What works for one child may not work for another.
I want to clarify that spanking was a form of attention for him. Since he thrives off attention, giving him that negative attention was still giving him attention. I have to remove him for a bit and then we talk and deal with the situation.
As a fellow Christian mother I actually gained a lot of respect for MckMama in this post. Yes, the Bible speaks of disciplining with the “rod” but it also speaks volumes of grace and mercy. I don’t remember the Bible ever stating that spanking was the only form of discipline?
I took MckMama’s stance to be one of, and please correct me if I am incorrect, but that yes, there can be appropriate times when spanking is necessary, but it is far from the only way to effectively discipline your child.
With that said, I do believe there is a lot of “soft” or ineffective parenting going on in our society. It is sad to see so many children that lack respect for themselves and adults. However, spanking is not the cure all!
You summarized my thoughts very well! Thanks for sharing;)
You minimized spanking as an effective tool when you declared:
“My once firmly held beliefs about the appropriateness of spanking have been replaced with a gentler approach that includes physical punishment much less often.”
-you’re implying it’s not appropriate
-you found a gentler approach that was superior
That’s not Biblical. I’m not saying that other forms of punishment/discipline should not be used, because most certainly, there are times and places for various methods. I’m pointing out that the Bible is taking a far less left-wing, new age, softer, gentler, emotionally fluffy approach.
To me, this is all in line with the feminization of America, of which you are now officially an advocate: make harder, tougher realities into softer, gentler, feminine, touchy-feely, emotional things. Don’t give your kids a swift smack on the bottom, TALK to them until they agree. REASON with them because hey, you can’t get upset when they’re poking the cat’s eyes with a stick for the third time.
Does PC feel this way too or have you talked him out of disciplining the kids via corporal punishment to the extent that he otherwise would? Did you make him feel like his now public history of temper problems disqualifies him from sound judgment in the area of discipline? I’m just curious – who was leading there? If PC thinks spanking is an inferior method, by all means, you carry on respecting his wishes and doing what you need to do, but if you’ve talked him out of this over time, if this is your initiative, that’s very telling.
De-lurking to say how interesting it is that MckMama chose to respond to Beth, who praised her, but in the same breath, chose to ignore the original poster. It seemed like a very well thought out comment and not disrespectful in any way. I’m always left wondering why those who challenge her politely are ignored, with “politely” being the key phrase here. I hate to say this, but it appears to be another missed opportunity for MckMama to really show some integrity. Didn’t she just post a “Ask Me Anything” thread? Why should we be so inclined to participate if she’s not willing to actively and honestly participate herself? Back to lurking for me. I really just don’t see the point in making such bold statements if she’s not confident enough to engage in conversation with her readers once in a while. Very one-sided relationship, if you ask me. Enjoy your week everyone!
And I forgot to add, that we support and practice appropriate and responsible spanking.
How do I add my picture when I comment?
You can go to gravatar.com and get one!
Be very careful in saying so boldly that spanking is “inseparable from the Bible’s prescription for effective parenting” without giving references to support that. The verse I know most proponents of spanking use is “Spare the rod, spoil the child.” Two problems with that:
1) It’s a proverb. Using a proverb as “prescription” is a very dangerous road to travel. Proverbs are a very specific genre in Scripture and need to be handled and treated as such.
2) A “rod” is a shepherd’s rod…used to guide the sheep, lift them out of crevices they’ve fallen into, and used to beat away the sheep’s enemies. Not to beat the sheep themselves. So if you are going to use this verse as a prescription for discipline, then realize that it’s telling you to guide and direct your child…not hit them.
From a practical standpoint, it is completely illogical to hit your children, especially as a punishment for hitting. A small child does not in any way have the capacity to understand that your spanking them for doing something “wrong” is different from them hitting a friend or sibling for wronging them. And you know what? It isn’t any different in my opinion.
My husband and I have made the choice to never spank our daughter. I think spanking is lazy discipline — one pop on the butt, and you’re done. I don’t want to hurt her. I want to guide and direct her and use creative methods that will work with her personality without alienating her and hurting her.
I think you’re confusing “rod” with “staff”. There’s a difference and the former is most definitely a tool for discipline amongst other things.
If you ever have a son, I bet you’ll eat those words. Or, your son will just grow up with no sense of self-control.
Children most definitely do understand the difference between a malicious hit and one done in the name of loving discipline. They’re not dogs….you really shouldn’t underestimate them like that. .
So the only way to raise a son is to spank him? Seriously? There are many other ways to discipline a child without hitting them. Just because a parent does not spank, doesn’t meant their children are running wild and out of control. I’m not sure why I’m bothering to reply to you. You have been nasty and close minded to anything anyone else says.
I would really encourage you to go listen to Pastor Robert Morris sermon on discipline. He pastors Gateway Church… http://www.gatewaypeople.com Look for the sermon Happy Child, Happy Home. It might give you a different view point.
i would highly recommend doing a study on the use of the word “rod” in the proverbs passages that are pointed to these days as the reason that Good mandates spanking. i was very surprised to find that, upon really looking into the meaning of the original words in their original language and comparing that to the use of similar words in the rest of scripture, the argument for mandated corporal punishment is not as strong as some would suggest.
i am not saying that spanking is wrong, just that upon further in-depth study, i found that it was not as black and white an issue as some make it out to be. i think that christians need to take responsibility for their beliefs and really look into such important issues as these.
I posted verses above. I think the message that “physical punishment may well save them from death” (Provers 23:14) is pretty clear, don’t you? That’s not the original King James, either, which states: “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.” If you think that’s figurative, I’m afraid you’re deceiving yourself.
so you think that spanking your child will bring him salvation? because that is the literal meaning of that verse. i think it is safe to say that the verse speaks figuratively in at least one way.
you would not look at verse one of that same chapter of proverbs and decide to slit your throat if you ate too much, would you? but that is exactly what it says to do. proverbs is just not as straight forward as, say, the ten commandments. it uses hyperbole to make a point.
I think that the implementation of corporal punishment is clearly suggested, no two ways about it.
Will spanking bring a child to salvation? I don’t see a guarantee there, just an increased likelihood. Hold it up to other verses, ie: Proverbs 22:6 “Train up a child in the way he should go and when he’s old, he will not depart from it”.
Kids who are taught that there are very real consequences to sin will be more conscious of that reality when they consider their eternal destiny. That being said, we know free will exists so this is obviously not a blanket promise.
I read that gluttony is so detestable, we’re to take serious action if we’re given to it. With the astronomical rates of obesity in America, I guess people don’t really take proverbs like this very seriously anymore.
There is a beautiful children’s book that our class gave my son’s kindergarten teacher this year. It’s called Mrs. Spitzer’s Garden by Edith Pattou. It uses a garden as a metaphor to tell how each child grows differently and needs different cultivation. It is a beautiful book and I cry every single time I read it!
I sent this post on to my husband. I appreciate the parenting metaphor, but he needed to hear that pruning the garden is ok
He just about cried when I told him I needed to thin the carrot plants. 
It’s becoming more of a reality to me as Ironman gets older and begins dabbling more in “rebellion” (as much as a 5 year old can). I HATE disciplining him. Spanking, loss of privileges, time outs etc, whatever the deed calls for, I despise it. I communicate that to him as well, that I’d much rather he had obeyed in the first place than have to actually follow through with the threat of discipline! But I tell him that I have to in order for him to learn obedience, and to grow up to be a person who knows limitations, right from wrong, etc. There are consequences to our actions, good or bad. I discipline him because I love him. And yet I wish that my love alone was enough to get him where he needs to go!
Thanks MckMama for this post! I can relate on so many fronts! Being a new gardener myself, I have referred to myself as “Mama Gardener” because I feel like my tender plants are like my little ones…dependent on me to provide for their needs, to raise them up in a safe and secure environment. Thusly I have been avoiding the thinning I know I need to do for some of my plants that are so closely nestled together!
And then relating the thinning to discipline with our ACTUAL kids…that hit home. I struggle in the discipline area. I definitely discipline out of my ‘feelings’ often…which means I swing from me too relaxed or permissive because I ‘feel’ like I don’t want upset children. Or I ‘feel’ like I don’t want to deal with the battle. Then, on the flip side, I find that I discipline out of feelings of frustration, which leads me to feel like I’ve disciplined unfairly because of my own ‘feelings’.
Looking at discipline for what it really is – an opportunity for us as parents to protect, guide and shepherd our children through the natural learning phases of life removes the whole ‘feelings’ and emotional piece of it and leaves us with the task at hand. I’ll be heading into this week with a renewed perspective thanks to your post!
Thanks for this post! It has been a hard topic of conversation this weekend. Caileigh gave her life to God Thursday after VBS and started asking about baptism and then Satan jumped in with both feet and then some all weekend. I had a long talk with her and with my parents last night on how the current parenting delimas need to be straightened out soon and a new plan needs to be in place for discipline. It’s so hard for me at times, I feel I am either too rough or not enough or the style of discipline doesn’t fit her personality. Being the only one home and being overwhlemed with Braedons stuff, I have not paid enough attention to my parenting of Caileigh. Thanks for refueling my walk as a parent and the encouragement that it isn’t too late to get it right.
If you like ‘grace-based parenting’ … you will enjoy a book entitled “Families Where Grace Is in Place” by Jeff VanVonderen. http://www.christianbook.com/families-where-grace-is-in-place/jeff-vanvonderen/9781556612664/pd/12663
You may also REALLY enjoy listening to Mark Hamby talk about his own parenting experiences. He is/was a homeschooling father who runs ‘Lamplighter Publishing’ (http://www.lamplighterpublishing.com/) and readily shares his experiences in raising his three (now adult) children as he moves from one ‘parenting’ style to another that better fits with his view of God and his children.
PS – God tells us that pruning WILL be painful but necessary in order to produce fruit … May your harvest be all He intends it to be, plentiful, fruitful and multiplied as He shows you just where to ‘nip the bud’ and ‘thin out’ in order to reap a harvest of eternal righteousness!
needed this tonight……thank you!
Phew! I thought for sure you were going to tell us you were getting rid of one or two of your MSC. So glad you deviated from the metaphor before it was too late.
“Deviated from the metaphor” … hahaha!
Great post…
I am one of your readers that has “almost” grown children…I had four children under the age of five, and five children under the age of 8..There were times when it was easier to ignore the bad behaviour, then to take the time to straighten things out. Looking back now, that was a selfish, easy way out as a parent.
We only have one chance at this parenting gig, and I now wish I had been more disciplined in my parenting, thus producing MORE disciplined children in return.
You are “spot-On” in your actions, and take it from me who has crossed the bridge from children to young adults, the proof is in the pudding…I hope what I did do right shines more than all that I did not do right.
Keep on keeping on !
You are a great mom..
Isn’t it amazing how we can see and learn such powerful lessons in everyday life experiences? I always love when some simple thing gets me thinking deep, and just as I know the pain of pulling out those perfectly growing little plants I also know the pains of doing the hard work of enforcing boundaries and saying no.
Enjoy the fruits of your labor in both your garden and in your sweet family!
i do the natural consequences method of discipline. it works well for my kids and teaches them that every choice they make has a consequence.
Sarah- Could you tell me more about this? I’d really appreciate it!
coopersmommy09@gmail.com
We love letting natural consequences teach our children, too! Here is a post I wrote all about it: http://mycharmingkids.net/2008/06/au-naturale/
Great post and I couldn’t agree with you more. Just as your plants will thrive from the thinning, so our children thrive in boudaries. It’s not easy and it really hurts to have to “weed” places of their hearts, but it is so very necessary. If we do this when they are young, then ultimately when they mature into adults we WILL be able to have that friendship with them that we all long for.
I heard it explained this way: We are their coaches in the game of life. In the early stages we will be on the field with them, training them, disciplining them, walking through the plays with them. As they grow and mature, we will slolwy step back, letting them call the plays on their own. By the time they are grown, if we’ve done our jobs correctly, we should be able to stand on the sideline and cheer as they run toward victory. If they want to jog over and ask for advice, we’ll be ready and waiting, but hopefully they won’t need us on the field anymore.
I get all emotional when I think about that. Makes me want to go hug on my babies…
I agree, this was a needed post. Hubby is leaving for work out of town, so I need to get my gardening gloves on!
Great thoughts. Discipline is hard work but so worth it.
I needed that post – thanks! Discipline is hard stuff – even though the kids don’t know it yet.